The Vatican full of dead Popes kept for display
http://ivarfjeld.com/2013/07/24/dead-pope-kept-in-open-air-after-earthquake/
Corpses of dead Popes are kept in the crypt in the Vatican. The body of Pope Celestino V is kept in the open in Central Italy.
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Catholic worship of corpses, skulls and bones has its origin in the crypt in St. Peters Basilica in the Vatican.
A total of 91 popes are buried in crypts in the grotto in St. Peters Basilica in Rome. This including popes like Innocent IX, Benedicts XII and XV, Pius XI and Paul VI.
But not all the Popes are buried and kept for display inside the Vatican. Pope Celestino is kept in the open of St. Maria of Collemaggio Church in L’Aquila in central Italy. The roof this Church came down during the earthquake on April 6th 2009.
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This is the official story of the Pope, who pay “homage” to a dead pope.
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There is absolutely no Bible verse that approve digging up the dead from their grave. Neither is there any Biblical defense for keeping corpses, skulls and bones for display inside Churches and Chapels.
Many Catholics will be surprised, by the high numbers of corpses of Popes, who have been kept inside the Vatican. But any dead Popes are put on display in Churches in other Italian cities.![]( "investigative-journalism")
We need to investigate this matter, and look at pictures of this pagan practice. The Papal system has kept more dead persons for display, than Communist Russia ever did in the Kremlin in Moscow.
From Wikipedia:
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This dead Pope is not put for public display. The Vatican priests even offer Mass at the altar, on top of the tomb of “Blessed John XXIII”. The priest who offer the mass, is Dom Louis Marie, Abbot of Le Barroux.
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The source of this photo:
Not all the dead Popes are put for display inside the Vatican. This is a picture of the Tomb of St. Pius V in the Church of St. Mary Major.
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You can view this photo on this site.
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Tomb of Blessed Pope Gregory X, at the Cattedrale di San Donato, Arezzo:
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The Incorrupt Relics of St. Athanasios the Great, in the Church of S. Zaccaria, in Venice, Italy.
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First published: 30.10.2010.
Written by Ivar
The former Pope pray besides the remains of Pope Celestino V.
A total of 91 popes are buried in crypts in the grotto in St. Peters Basilica in Rome. This including popes like Innocent IX, Benedicts XII and XV, Pius XI and Paul VI.
But not all the Popes are buried and kept for display inside the Vatican. Pope Celestino is kept in the open of St. Maria of Collemaggio Church in L’Aquila in central Italy. The roof this Church came down during the earthquake on April 6th 2009.
The Pope pray in front of the corpse of a Pope, who died 700 years ago.
The Pope touch the glass coffin, and lead other Catholic priest into worship of the dead Pontiff.
Pope Benedict XVI blesses the faithful in front of the remains of Pope Celestine V at the end of a mass in Sulmona, Italy, Sunday, July 4, 2010. The Pontiff had traveled to the central Italian town to pay homage to Celestine V, the 13th-century hermit pontiff who resigned after saying he was not up to the task. Benedict urged the faithful Sunday to learn from Celestine’s sober and simple life. He praised Celestine for his detachment from material things such as money and clothes.The Pope paied “homage”to the only Pope that has resigned from the Papacy. Not only did he resigned, but he was arrested by the Pope that succeeded him.
Pope Celestine knew he was ill prepared for the papacy, and actually resigned from the Petrine office on December 13, 1294. Now back to being “Fra Pietro”, he had hoped to return to hermetical life. But his successor, Pope Boniface VIII, feared that the ex-pope could be used in an attempt to unseat him. The Pope confined him to a house arrest, and though he managed to escape for a time, he was eventually confined to a tower in Castel Fumone. There, though not mistreated, he died of an infection from an absess on May 19, 1296. His remains were transferred to Sta. Maria di Colemaggio in 1317.This contact between the Pope and a dead Pope, sets the example for worship of corpses, skulls and bones in the Roman Catholic Church.
Did Pope Celestinie V die with his shoes on? The Pope greets the crowed who have already been lead into prayer and worship.
This is the place Pope Celestino V was put up for display. Before the earthquake in central Italy brought his remains down on the floor.
Many Catholics will be surprised, by the high numbers of corpses of Popes, who have been kept inside the Vatican. But any dead Popes are put on display in Churches in other Italian cities.
We need to investigate this matter, and look at pictures of this pagan practice. The Papal system has kept more dead persons for display, than Communist Russia ever did in the Kremlin in Moscow.
From Wikipedia:
There are over 100 tombs within St. Peter’s Basilica (extant to various extents), many located in the Vatican grotto, beneath the Basilica. These include 91 popes, St. Ignatius of Antioch, Holy Roman Emperor Otto II, and the composer Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina. Exiled Catholic British royalty James Francis Edward Stuart and his two sons, Charles Edward Stuart and Henry Benedict Stuart, are buried here, having been granted asylum by Pope Clement XI. Also buried here are Maria Clementina Sobieska, wife of James Francis Edward Stuart, Queen Christina of Sweden, who abdicated her throne in order to convert to Catholicism, and Countess Matilda of Tuscany, supporter of the Papacy during the Investiture Controversy. The most recent interment was Pope John Paul II, on April 8, 2005. Beneath, near the crypt, is the recently discovered vaulted fourth-century “Tomb of the Julii”.Plenty of Popes are kept for display inside the crypt in St. Peter Basillica in the Vatican statehood.
The corpse of pope Paul XXIII looks a litle bit like Santa Claus.
The red dress and the read cap makes this waxed body look very different from other corpses.
A Catholic mass is offerd, with a corpse of a dead Pope inside the altar.
Not all the dead Popes are put for display inside the Vatican. This is a picture of the Tomb of St. Pius V in the Church of St. Mary Major.
This dead Pope is put for display on the wall of a Church in Italy.
Catholic priests offers a mass and sing hymns in front of the corpse of the Pope.
Pope burried like a King, and kept like an Egyptian mummie in a Catholic Church.
Pope kept like the Communist Russia would keep their leaders inside the Kremlin.
A dead Pope, denied a place to rest in a tomb of silence. Kept for adoration and worship.
Written by Ivar
Another thing that I never understood was the celibacy thing for priests. The leaders of the Jewish faith were COMMANDED to live a life that would be an EXAMPLE to the people. Rabbis and Kohen’s are supposed to get married, have children, take care of their communities, honor their parents and be honorable. What kind of an EXAMPLE can these priests be? How would they know how to interact with the people that they supposedly LEAD? They know nothing of LIFE, so how could they lead in LIFE? Also, they disobey the commandment of g-d, that says to be prolific. One can be prolific in many ways, but one factor HAS to be there and that is to LIVE life among the people. A woman who is barren can have many children, because she can adopt and do other things and so can men. They can tutor boys and guide the boys that may not have a proper male figure, yet still, these MEN must be living IN the life of the people and not OUTSIDE that LIVING EXPERIENCE.
So, I DON’T understand. This seems like a very big difference to me as it touches on many commands from g-d that these “priests?” are actually required to NOT do. This seems ANTI – G-d. I’m sorry to sound so critical. I’m just not able to see how this reconciles with Judaism. I suppose thats why it’s Catholicism and not Judaism. But other Christians have pastors and they CAN get married and do live among the people, so I don’t get it.
The rule for Catholic Priests to remain celibate was instituted around the time just prior to the Reformation (early 1500s I believe – need to verify this) and was instituted to combat the corruption that had been going on where some Bishops were causing so much scandal with their chronyism and with extramarital affairs, etc. that the Church hierarchy needed to clean things up.
Secondly it was instituted to ensure that Priests were not hindered by their familial duties and were to make themselves present for their communities at all times.
Since the rule governing this is not “doctrinal” it can be changed at any time by the Pope and the Church hierarchy. To date they have not chosen to do this.
Your Comment: thanks for not just joining in the torch and pitch-fork parade here and for asking honest questions.
My Comment: Respecting one another is essential. With all due respect, If you feel that this is a “pitch-fork parade”, you are not obligated to post anything.
“I thought Catholics were ALOT like Jews”, NO, NO AND NO this is NOWHERE near the truth, as Biblical Judaism and Christianity are really a “completion” of each other and that DOES NOT include Catholicism or any other “religion” that goes against the Word of God.
Celibacy with the Priests DID NOT start out as a Biblical issue, but one that had more to do with ‘issues’ that were going on within the Catholic Church and the world as a whole. Your second sentence “speaks volumes” but sadly NOT All within the Catholic Church will accept what you say here. It is anti-God and does NOT reconcile with Judaism in any way, shape or form.
Over the years I’ve come to learn much when it comes to the Bible from my Bishop, other ministers who hold the Bible to what it truly stands for with God/Jesus, and believe it or not those in the MESSIANIC COMMUNITY as well. The Messianic Rabbi’s, threw the Hebraic texts have given me insight (with the help of Yeshua Hamashiach-Jesus Christ and the Ruach HaKodesh-Holy Spirit as well). Isaiah 53 and 58 are two of the most power scriptures in the Old Testament that makes me smile when I think about all that Yeshua has relieved to your people.
NO txlady706, Catholicism is NOTHING like the Torah, but please continue to pray for them to come to the knowledge of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, as well as Yeshua Hamashiach? Thanks and take care.
Fundamentalist Christians do not teach or believe this doctrine as the Scriptures of both Testaments teach us that Christ alone, G-d manifest in the flesh, the G-d of the Old Testament and New, of the living and the dead, saw no corruption, and that He ALONE saw no corruption of the body.
The Scriptures below speak for themselves, and need no “interpretation”, the last verse demonstrates that only He whom G-d has raised from the dead so far, Lord Jesus Christ, saw no corruption as these wax dummies exhibit.
Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Ac 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
The Pope looks like a certifiable lunatic yet billions look up to him as some kind of demigod. Strange world…
Oh, and to the Jewish guy, if you knew your history my friend you would certainly never say that Catholics are like Jews. The bast*rds helped spirit Nazis out of Germany at the end of the war, the then Pope never said a word against the Nazi regime and actively helped steal Jewish possessions and store them while also handling the gold taken from teeth.
The disgusting disgrace of a Pope that you see before you here in this article wants to repatriate a holocaust denier bishop into the fold and was himself a former indoctrinated member of the Nazi Youth. Believe me, this so called “infallible” monster is no friend of the Jews and Catholics have routinely persecuted the Jews for countless generations, it wasn’t so long ago that they were burning Non-Catholics alive at the stake. Evil, Crazy and Twisted.
This is very different from the faith in the Living G_d through His only begotten Ben, Yeshua Mashiach.
Tim Hegg’s website has a few historical articles regarding church history which can help some people understand better why the Roman Catholic faith is different from true faith in Yeshua/Jesus. http://www.torahresource.com/ArticlesEnglish.html
Most of all, reading your bible will protect you from deception. G_d’s Word is our shield.
Jesus said: “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” – John 8:32 (KJV)
we all have our opionions,
so have a nice day, and happy nerw year!
One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself. Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body (Mark 15:43, John 19:38). He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place (Matt. 27:60). Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes (John 19:39), that amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead. And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb (Matt. 28:1) and to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb (Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1). These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.
‘You’ are Absolutely correct, “honoring” the LORD because of who He is and what He’s done for ALL mankind is vastly different from what’s being done by the Catholic Church, and in the end when we come to stand before Almighty God some people will sadly learn this too late.
Mary was chosen by God and did what was requested of her, but NOWHERE in any other Bible that I’ve ever read, does it tell real Christians to pray to her or anyone else who knew the Lord and is “resting” until His return. The ‘traditions of men and the devil’ will end up taking many to hell by ‘their own choice’ if they don’t come out of it and seek the Lord for themselves.
Besides God (and Jesus) being ‘love’, they’re also “Holy, Righteous and Just”, which too many seem to want to forget. Please continue to pray for Catholics and others caught up in ‘religious systems’ who urgently need to know the ‘true and living God/Jesus’, and NOT one of man’s making.
The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: “So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet” (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!
Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them” (Acts 19:11-12).
If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are? In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones. In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures. There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice. If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.
It is not the “cloak or a relic” that cured the woman when she touched Christ. It is her faith in Jesus that healed her.
No relic can save you nor heal you. It is Jesus Christ that can.
Mark 5
30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”
31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”
32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”
Shalom, and thanks for fresh comments.
You wrote:
If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.
My reply:
Relics are mediums, created objects. The Vatican have made them objects of worship (or adoration and veneration), bluntly idols. The Bible says we hall not call any created thing Holy. Only God is Holy. And there is only one mediator between man and God, and that in Jesus the Messiah.
The Roman Catholic do not only live in sin, in regards to one scripture .The Vatican force their subjects to makes images and idols, to bow down to them, pray to them, and kiss them.
The Bible says this is wickedness, a religious movement that”s mock God. By listen to their false priests, they all make them selves worthless in the eye of God of the Bible.
Psalm 31:6
I hate those who cling to worthless idols; as for me, I trust in the LORD.
Jeremiah 2:8
The priests did not ask, ‘Where is the LORD?’ Those who deal with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by Baal, following worthless idols.
Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
(end of scriptures)
You are free to chose life or death. Be wise. For what do you need this created objects, when you are called to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth?
That a man was casted into Elisha’s tomb and touched his bones, does not mean that these bones were taken home, keep on the table to be kissed and adored for generations to come.
The Moabites that came were “raiders”, or tomb robbers. They looted the graves, because some pagan Jews did bury the dead with all their golds and ornaments. Since Elisha was a man of God, there was surely no idols in his tomb, no gold on his bones.
This example from the Jewish Tannakh (Old Testament) can forever stand as a rebuke from God, that the Jews should have listen to Elisha, while he was alive. Many Jews did not, but rather killed the prophets who called them to burn and destroy their idols.
Deuteronomy 4:15-19
Idolatry Forbidden
You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.
(end of scriptures)
This in plain languages, that even kids can read and understand.
The Roman Catholics rejects the Word of God, and obey the Pope. Such foolishness is going to cost them everything. Repent or perish.
4 Kings 13:20-21 “And Eliseus died, and they buried him. And the rovers from Moab came into the land the same year. And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life and stood upon his feet.”
Matthew 9:20-22 “And behold a woman who was troubled with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment. For she said within herself: If I shall touch only his garment, I shall be healed. But Jesus turning and seeing her, said: Be of good heart, daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.”
Acts 19:11-12 “And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.
It’s funny to me how a culture that is filled with autograph hounds and those who clamor to be around those glittered with “star dust” can consider the Catholic veneration of relics as a joke. A lovely dish is just a lovely dish, but one owned by your great-grandmother is a treasure. Some stranger’s pocketwatch is just a timepiece, but one given to you by your grandfather is something you’d literally mourn losing. We pay $20,000 for a $200 jacket worn by Jacqueline Kennedy, faint at Beatles concerts, engage in riotous behavior to get our hands on one of Elvis’s scarves, but when a relic of St. Catherine is mentioned, people snicker.
As you can see, however, from the verses above, veneration of relics is strictly scriptural, and the earliest Christians saw things in the same way as the ancient Israelites and those in the New Testament accounts. St. Augustine (A.D. 354 – 430) wrote in City of God:
If a father’s coat or ring, or anything else of that kind, is so much more cherished by his children, as love for one’s parents is greater, in no way are the bodies themselves to be despised, which are much more intimately and closely united to us than any garment; for they belong to man’s very nature,
St. Jerome (ca. A.D. 340 – 420) clarified Catholic belief in his Ad Riparium:
We do not adore, I will not say the relics of the martyrs, but either the sun or the moon or even the angels — that is to say, with the worship of “latria”…But we honor the martyrs’ relics, so that thereby we give honor to Him Whose [witness] they are: we honor the servants, that the honor shown to them may reflect on their Master… Consequently, by honoring the martyrs’ relics we do not fall into the error of the Gentiles, who gave the worship of “latria” to dead men.
When considering relics, it is to be remembered that the body and soul are forever one, even when they seem to be separated by death. The body of the saved will be resurrected and glorified (the bodies of the damned will also be resurrected, for that matter). Forever is there a connection between the remains and the soul that has departed from them — and the great souls whose remains are left to us have a power described well by St. John of Damascus (a.k.a. “John Damascene”), ca. A.D. 676 – 754/87, in his “Exposition of the Orthodox Faith”:
These [the bodies of the Saints] are made treasuries and pure habitations of God: For I will dwell in them, said God, and walk in them, and I will be their God. The divine Scripture likewise saith that the souls of the just are in God’s hand and death cannot lay hold of them. For death is rather the sleep of the saints than their death. For they travailed in this life and shall to the end, and Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints. What then, is more precious than to be in the hand of God? For God is Life and Light, and those who are in God’s hand are in life and light.
Further, that God dwelt even in their bodies in spiritual wise, the Apostle tells us, saying, Know ye not that your bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you?, and The Lord is that Spirit, and If any one destroy the temple of God, him will God destroy. Surely, then, we must ascribe honour to the living temples of God, the living tabernacles of God. These while they lived stood with confidence before God.
The Master Christ made the remains of the saints to be fountains of salvation to us, pouring forth manifold blessings and abounding in oil of sweet fragrance: and let no one disbelieve this. For if water burst in the desert from the steep and solid rock at God’s will and from the jaw-bone of an ass to quench Samson’s thirst, is it incredible that fragrant oil [see below] should burst forth from the martyrs’ remains? By no means, at least to those who know the power of God and the honour which He accords His saints.
In the law every one who toucheth a dead body was considered impure, but these are not dead. For from the time when He that is Himself life and the Author of life was reckoned among the dead, we do not call those dead who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection and in faith on Him. For how could a dead body work miracles? How, therefore, are demons driven off by them, diseases dispelled, sick persons made well, the blind restored to sight, lepers purified, temptations and troubles overcome, and how does every good gift from the Father of lights come down through them to those who pray with sure faith?
See also this excerpt from the Homilies on the Epistle to the Romans, by St. John Chrysostom (A.D. 347 – 407).
Shalom.
You wrote:
Acts 19:11-12 “And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.
My comment:
Roman Catholics are simply not willing to obey the truth, repent and be saved.
It is not written that they took the handkerchiefs of Paul with them home, bowed down to them and kissed them. I guess that is what a Catholic would do.
God can use whatever He wants, and whoever He wants all the time. But to claim that: Since Paul handkerchiefs was used to heal someone, the bones and skulls of late Popes will do the same. It is also possible to make a doctrine that say that all handkerchiefs of “holy men” has the healing powers.
If I see any one bowing down and kissing my handkerchiefs, I will tell them to repent from such wickedness. If I see any Catholic parading my handkerchiefs on their shoulders through the streets, I will call an ambulance from a mental hospital, and get them admitted. For such spiritual madness shall not take place on my watch.
The Bible says worship God in spirit and in truth. Only God is “Holy”. The rest of us are created beings, sinners that needs to stop mocking God, and repent.
Throw your first class, second class and third class relics in the river, and beg Jesus for mercy. Than you will have a chance to escape the coming wrath of God. If not you will have plenty of time to regret in hell. Unfortunately it will be to late. You will have to spend eternity there, just as the Bible explains:
Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
In fact, when the Israelites started burning incense to the bronze snake that Moses made—the bronze snake was destroyed by a man of God.
1 John 5:21 Dear children, keep yourself from idols.
Although the veneration of relics was not explicitly practiced in the Christian Bible, supporters of the practice have seen support for honoring relics of the saints in the following passages:
Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the main’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. (2 Kings 13:21, NIV)
Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding to 12 years came up behind him [Jesus] and touched the edge of his cloak. She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.” Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed from that moment. (Matthew 9:20-22, NIV)
As evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. (Mark 15:43, NIV)
People brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by… and all of them were healed. (Acts 5:15-16, NIV)
God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. (Acts 19:11-12, NIV)
For Catholic and Orthodox Christians, these passages confirm their belief that God chooses to work miracles through material items associated with saints.
It looks like you are not reading scripture that well! No where in scripture does it say a man of God destroyed a bronze serpent??? Where does it say that????
During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.
Read this passage from the Bible about what happened to the bronze snake Moses made:
2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?
Here is part of an article that tells about the practice of the Catholic Church bowing to and incensing objects. This is a link to read the whole article: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass (“Ritus servandus” in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly “to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it” when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them.
I (and I’m sure quite a few others) want to thank you for what you’ve posted, but sadly no matter how many ‘scripture verses you post here’, they will twist it to fit what the Catholic Church has taught and ingrained in them over many years, rather than doing an exhaustive and thorough ‘search’ for themselves.
How many times in the Bible does the LORD tell us to ‘search Him out’, but despite this too many continue to ‘cling to the traditions’ of “men” instead? My being Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc. WILL NOT get me into heaven, and on judgment day I get the feeling too many will ultimately be quite shocked, highly disappointed, and extremely saddened by what they’ve let themselves be drawn into following. I pray they wake up before it’s too late.
1. Protestant principles demand that the Catholic Church is wrong in any of its claims.
Protestants must say the Catholic Church is wrong or else why are they Protestant? Yet they must also admit that not one of their denominations has any right to claim that it itself is the True Church.
2. Where does it say in Scripture that Christ founded any such system as a church?
Matthew 16:18: “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.” Christ terms His Church a kingdom, which in turn supposes some organized authority. The explicit steps in the establishing of such a hierachy are clearly seen in Scripture. Christ chose certain special men: “You have not chosen Me; but I have chosen you.” (John 15:16). He gave them His own mission: “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” (John 20:21). This commission included His teaching authority: “Teach all nations…whatsoever I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:12-20). He gave them His power to sanctify: “Baptising them…” (Matthew 28:19), forgive sin “Whose sin you shall forgive, they are forgiven…” (John 20:23), and offer sacrifice “Do this in remembrance of Me” (1 Corinthians 11:24). He gave them His legislative, or disciplinary power: “He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you despises Me.” (Luke 10:16), “Whatsoever you bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven.” (Matthew 18:18), “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen.” (Matthew 18:17). The Apostles certainly exercised these powers from the beginning: “They were all persevering in the doctrine of the Apostles.” (Acts 2:42). St. Paul himself did not hesitate to ex-communicate the incestuous Corinthian in 1 Corinthians 5:3-5. And he wrote to the Hebrews “Obey your prelates, and be subject to them.” (Hebrews 14:17).
Jesus is the Rock! What Jesus was emphasizing is based on what Peter had declare by revelation of the Father, when he said: “Thou are the Christ, the son of the Living God.” Notice what Jesus said to Peter, “…and on this rock I will build my church.” He didn’t say, “and upon you Peter” but on what Peter had declared. The emphasis as to when Jesus said, “and I tell you that you are Peter”, Peter means, little rock, not “the rock”. Another words, Peter and also the rest of the apostles were the “pillars” of the foundation, which is Jesus, where upon the church will be built. Peter receives the message as a leader among the disciples, but definately, and with so many scriptures that affirm it, Jesus is the “Rock” the foundation of the church.
And I agree with him completely.
What does it mean when reading the Bible the words seem to jump out at you?
In John 1:42 we find Christ saying to Peter “Thou art Simon…thou shalt be called Cephas or Kepha, which is interpreted Peter which means Rock.” There are several instances of name changes in the Bible, and each time someones name was changed it meant that person was to take on a special mission. Christ had a special purpose in changing Peter’s name to Cephas, or rock. That purpose was manifested later in Matthew 16:18 “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.” Peter’s name was Simon and Christ changed it to Peter, which in the original Aramaic language is Kepha. Kepha in Aramaic is the word for “rock” or “stone”, which was never used as a proper name in that language. Therefore what Christ was really saying is “Thou art Mr. Stone, and upon this stone I will build My Church.” Christ could not possibly be referring to Himself in this text when using this word in this way.
It looks like Augustine of Hippo, or St. Augustine as the Catholic church likes to call him, agrees with you and your pastor also.
Volume VI, St. Augustine, Sermon XXVI.1-2, p. 340)
“Because thou hast said unto me, ‘thou art the Christ the Son of the living God;’ I also say unto thee, ‘Thou art Peter.’ For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is also called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Therefore he saith, ‘Thou art Peter and upon this rock’ which thou hast confessed, upon this rock which thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God’ will I build my Church’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon me, not myself upon thee . . . For men who wished to be built upon men, said ‘I am of Paul; and I am of Apollos; and I of Cephas,’ who is Peter. But others did not wish to be built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said,’But I am of Christ.’ And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, ‘Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?’ And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ.; that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter.”
If someone has an agenda, or are on a mission, that person can twist words or misrepresent them to fit their goal. That is what happened in the development of the Roman Catholic church.
I don’t understand. When I read the Bible, sometimes I know immediately what Christ is saying. Sometimes I go to my Pastor and he’ll teach me what Christ is saying, and what Jesus means.
I know that sermon from Augustine and you are missing other citation from that sermon as a whole for Augustine to explain Peter is the first Pope founded by Christ! and what about the St. Augustine 53th letter to a fellow bishop on reminding about the Peter as First Pope and bishop of Rome???
Letter 53 (A.D. 400)
To Generosus, Our Most Loved and Honourable Brother, Fortunatus, Alypius, and Augustine Send Greeting in the Lord.
Chapter 1
1. Since you were pleased to acquaint us with the letter sent to you by a Donatist presbyter, although, with the spirit of a true Catholic, you regarded it with contempt, nevertheless, to aid you in seeking his welfare if his folly be not incurable, we beg you to forward to him the following reply. He wrote that an angel had enjoined him to declare to you the episcopal succession of the Christianity of your town; to you, forsooth, who hold the Christianity not of your own town only, nor of Africa only, but of the whole world, the Christianity which has been published, and is now published to all nations. This proves that they think it a small matter that they themselves are not ashamed of being cut off, and are taking no measures, while they may, to be engrafted anew; they are not content unless they do their utmost to cut others off, and bring them to share their own fate, as withered branches fit for the flames. Wherefore, even if you had yourself been visited by that angel whom he affirms to have appeared to him—a statement which we regard as a cunning fiction; and if the angel had said to you the very words which he, on the warrant of the alleged command, repeated to you—even in that case it would have been your duty to remember the words of the apostle: “Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8 For to you it was proclaimed by the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, that His “gospel shall be preached unto all nations, and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14 To you it has moreover been proclaimed by the writings of the prophets and of the apostles, that the promises were given to Abraham and to his seed, which is Christ, Galatians 3:16 when God said unto him: “In your seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed.” Having then such promises, if an angel from heaven were to say to you, “Let go the Christianity of the whole earth, and cling to the faction of Donatus, the episcopal succession of which is set forth in a letter of their bishop in your town,” he ought to be accursed in your estimation; because he would be endeavouring to cut you off from the whole Church, and thrust you into a small party, and make you forfeit your interest in the promises of God.
2. For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: “Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it!” Matthew 16:18 The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these:— Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of “mountain men,” or Cutzupits, by which they were known.
You seem to be referencing or studying other books to see what Jesus means. It is clear that Jesus is the Rock, always has been, always will be.
I do not know who this Augustine person is or was. But I do know what Jesus Christ is saying, and as we know Jesus is the way, the truth, and his words are forever.
Upon this rock, this confession, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” Christ builds His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against that.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
We have been given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. They aren’t the property of Peter or any pope.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Christians don’t need any pope to bind or loose things. They only need Christ in the midst of them.
You are looking at this Chapter and verse of Matthew 16:18: “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.” How can you ignore this reference?? Christ terms His Church a kingdom, which in turn supposes some organized authority. The explicit steps in the establishing of such a hierachy are clearly seen in Scripture. Christ chose certain special men: “You have not chosen Me; but I have chosen you.” (John 15:16). He gave them His own mission: “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” (John 20:21). This commission included His teaching authority: “Teach all nations…whatsoever I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:12-20). He gave them His power to sanctify: “Baptising them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:19), forgive sin “Whose sin you shall forgive, they are forgiven…” (John 20:23), and offer sacrifice “Do this in remembrance of Me” (Paul 1 Corinthians 11:24). He gave them His legislative, or disciplinary power: “He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you despises Me.” (Luke 10:16), “Whatsoever you bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven.” (Matthew 18:18), “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen.” (Matthew 18:17). The Apostles certainly exercised these powers from the beginning: “They were all persevering in the doctrine of the Apostles.” (Acts 2:42). St. Paul himself did not hesitate to ex-communicate the incestuous Corinthian in 1 Corinthians 5:3-5. And he wrote to the Hebrews “Obey your prelates, and be subject to them.” (Hebrews 14:17).
Gloria
There is a History of the Early Church and Early Church Fathers is where I’m getting Augustine.
here is good source to start out with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers
just look at before saying its a trick when it is not…just peek and look at its references.
What Jesus said to Peter…he did not say to the Catholic Popes.
And there is no such thing in the Bible as “Apostolic Succession.”
These people called early church fathers made statemnts that were good and statements that were suspect and sometimes contradictory. Augustine was one of them. Thanks for helping show that.
Here are quotes, Letters, Sermons from the Early Church Father!! Especially about the Papacy and Peter as the first!!!
Hegesippus
“When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord” (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
Irenaeus of Lyon
“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about” (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:2).
“Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time” (ibid., 3:3:4).
“Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?” (ibid., 3:4:1).
“[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth” (ibid., 4:26:2).
“The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere” (ibid., 4:33:8).
Tertullian
“[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).
“[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood” (ibid., 21).
“But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter” (ibid., 32).
“But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory” (ibid.).
“Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith” (ibid.).
Cyprian of Carthage
“[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way” (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).
Jerome
“Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians” (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).
Augustine
“[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397]).
Common logic tell us this is unsound. There is perhaps some good in every religion, however, some good is not enough. Religion is not good enough in the eyes of God unless it is founded by God, has all of God’s teachings, and has all that is necessary to lead all people to a holy life, and thus to heaven. There are literally thousands of Protestant congregations, and none of them believe exactly the same thing. Ask any two Protestant preachers how they interpret a passage of the Bible and you will get two different answers. They can’t both be right. The Holy Spirit is not a Spirit of confusion. How do you know which is right? Christ in His Wisdom forsaw the rise of false Christs and substituted forms of professing Christianity and endowed His Church with certain notable characteristics to help us know which church is the right one.
If the Catholic Church is so holy, why are there unholy people, including priests, in it?
Unholy people, including priests, in the Catholic Church does not make the Catholic Church unholy. Christ predicted that sinners would be found in the True Church when he told of bad fish in the good net, weeds growing among the wheat. Bad Catholics, including priests, are those who are not living up to the teachings of the Church. Bad Catholics can be accounted for without injuring the holiness of the Church, but canonized Saints cannot be accounted for without admitting to that holiness. Catholics that are bad are bad in spite of their Church, not because of it. There is not a single dogma the Catholic Church teaches which does not tend to confirm in its members the will to serve God. In terms of moral laws, no one can keep the laws of the Catholic Church and not be a better person for it. No one sincerely joins the Catholic Church without desiring a loftier standard of living, and no one leaves the Catholic Church except for a lower standard. The Catholic Church has labored like no other to lift men and women above the natural and sensual, fighting for purity of morals, the holiness of marriage, and the rights of God and conscience in every department of life. Outward respectability and mere humanitarianism can never, in the eyes of the Church, replace that true supernatural virtue and charity which demand that the daily personal, domestic, and social life of a Christian must be inspired by love of God. Anyone who says God doesn’t belong in their professional lives are wrong, God made everything, He belongs everywhere. People who leave the Church do not leave because they found the Church untrue, but because they have been untrue to their own obligations.
You wrote,
“There are literally thousands of Protestant congregations, and none of them believe exactly the same thing. Ask any two Protestant preachers how they interpret a passage of the Bible and you will get two different answers.” End
This is an exageration and I’m fairly certain you don’t believe that At least I hope you don’t. Protestants are united in most of their beliefs. Catholics differ in their beliefs also. You know that there are liberal Catholics and traditional Catholics, Eastern and Western, Sedevacantist, etc. While the Catholic church has core beliefs, like all others, there is disagreement also.
The Baptists have a core set of beliefs and most Baptist pastors teach the same thing. The same can be said of every denomination or religion. The accusation the Catholic church brings against others applies to it as well.
Anyway religion or denomination won’t save you or me anyone else. Here is a scriptural definition of religion.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Shalom.
You wrote:
The Baptists have a core set of beliefs and most Baptist pastors teach the same thing. The same can be said of every denomination or religion. The accusation the Catholic church brings against others applies to it as well.
My comment:
The core baptists set of belief’s, is the message of Jesus: Repent (make a U-turn) or perish.
The true Baptist’s are like the original Jewish believers in Yeshua. Because they obey Him in their baptism, for some the first act of Holiness and obedience.
The rest of the flock been deceived by Rome, and do follow and teach man made doctrines. They put up all kind of philosophy and cleaver invented human arguments, for why they should not be immersed in water (The burial of baptism). And only do so after they have confessed their faith in Him in public, in front of 2X students of Jesus.
The Catholic Church has issues just like all the other ones and is NO different, it breaks my heart that you’re being deceived with the lies that get more elaborate as time goes on. God/Jesus WILL NOT say, “Casey has been a good Catholic, or Susan has been a good Protestant, or John has been a good Jew”, you’ve made it into heaven. “Your heart and actions and what you’ve done with God’s Word will tell on you and all the rest of us more than anything else”.
The one “true” church is “the body of believers who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, and God-Yahweh, the Father”. Denomination has NOTHING to do with the Kingdom of God/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit and I hope and pray you find that out before it’s too late.
Traditonal vs Liberal Catholics are still Catholic. The claim is how the Liturgy and Church should run!
Protestants claim that the Catholic Church was holy at one time, but it became corrupt, that’s why Protestantism began.
Anyone who truely believes that…..is calling Christ a liar because he said He would be with His Church until the end of time (Matthew 28:20), and He also promised “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). As stated above, there can be corrupt people in the Church, but the Catholic Church Itself cannot be corrupt, and it cannot teach error. The Bible calls the Church the Body of Christ, and if the Church became corrupt or taught error it could be rightly said that Christ was corrupt or teaching error.
Protestant churches are at least as holy as the Catholic Church.
Protestantism does not preserve Christian standards intact. Articles of faith have been thrown out, mortification and fasting are not required, the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience, with their consequent inspiration of monastic life, are ignored. Protestant leaders excuse, and even approve, laxity in moral practice, allowing such things as abortion, gay sex and gay “marriage”. There is nothing equivalent to canonized Saints in Protestantism, they don’t have the authority from God to do so. Many of the Sacraments of Christ are not even acknowledged by Protestantism, while the heart has been torn out of its worship by the loss of Christ’s Presence in the Blessed Sacrament. The Protestant Bible is missing 7 books that God wants included. The Protestant clergy are not trained in moral law, and therefore cannot advise the laity as they should. The prevalent Protestant notion of “Believe in Christ and be saved” tends of its very nature to lessen the sense of necessity of personal virtue. After all, even Satan “believes” in Christ.
Shalom
You wrote:
There are literally thousands of Protestant congregations, and none of them believe exactly the same thing. Ask any two Protestant preachers how they interpret a passage of the Bible and you will get two different answers.” End. Actually, Last I checked there were over 33,000 Protestant Christian and those claiming Non-denominational.
My reply:
This is not a site for debate on Church politics. It is fruitless, and leads to nothing. Men are wicked, and compare a Church with another. They might be Catholic or protestant, I could care less. All I need to know: Do people obey Jesus. Are the people in a fellowship, followers of Him?
It is not enough to say that “Catholics believe in Jesus Christ” since there are true and false kinds of belief. Saving faith is a gift of God, by which His children rely on Jesus Christ for salvation. Counterfeit faith is deceptively similar, but it is powerless and useless to save. While I sincerely hope that there are many Catholics who genuinely believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, yet there are reasons for serious concern.
Faith implies the correct understanding of, and assent to, the teaching of the Bible about Christ. The Catholic Church rejects the various heresies about the person of Christ, such as the Arian denial of His Deity. I thank God that the Catholic Church continues to uphold the great truths on the Deity and incarnation, death and bodily resurrection of Christ, as expressed in the ancient creeds from the 3-4th century still used today!
No matter what anyone tries to teach me about God…I read the Bible to see if what they say is true. I don’t ever want to do anything that God says not to do.
I spend my days trying to please the Lord.
When Catholics hear things that the Pope says, do you check it out to see if it is scriptural? Do you make excuses to do things that God says not to? You have a Bible, study the scriptures to see if what you are told is true.
Catholics do things that we are commanded not to. You are even listening to a man who sins by being called “Holy Father”!
It brings me to tears when I do anything that is wrong, I then ask for forgiveness and repent. How can you do things against God and make excuses for it?
Being saved is about a personal relationship with Jesus. You have a Bible, don’t rely on the Pope, or anyone, for your personal relationship.
How can you say you even know Jesus? How can you say you know Jesus when you do things he says not to do?
Jesus says he will reveal himself to those who love him by doing what he teaches. How do you show you love him when you do not do what he teaches?
How can you say you are of his sheep when you are told the truth, yet you don’t hear his voice in what is said? You do the opposite of what he says. Don’t call anyone father, only go through Jesus, don’t bow to statues…
Why don’t you start obeying and doing what Jesus says?
You said: Why can’t you accept that Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as our Saviour just like Baptists and other Christians? Why does it matter in what form we express our faith?
My Comment: It’s pretty simple.
Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
1 Corinthians 10:20-21 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
You may respond, ‘Yes, the Christian should be obedient to the Bible. But why insist on the Bible ALONE as his ultimate authority?’
To answer, let me ask some questions myself. What would you add to the Bible? ‘Sola Scriptura’ is not whether the Bible is the infallible Word of God or not (we all agree that it is). The question is whether the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith or not; whether we should add something else of equal authority along with the Bible.
Well then, would you add human reason and philosophy, as the liberals do? No, because the word of man could never be equal to the word of God. ‘Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar’ (Proverbs 30:5). What then, would you add to the written Word of God? Let us consider three possibilities:
1. New revelations
Can we add new revelations? No, because God’s revelation is complete. There was a time when God was giving new revelations as He was unfolding the plan of salvation. Indeed there was a time when there was no written Scriptures and God spoke audibly to people like Adam, Noah and Abraham. There was a time when God’s Word came in the form of prophetic and apostolic speech as well as the written form. God’s revelation reached its climax in Christ, who is the image of the invisible God. During the apostolic era, the Christian faith was delivered in full to the church, as Jude tells us. Christians should ‘should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints’ (Jude 3). It is therefore wrong to seek new revelations seeing that the Bible declares that the Christian faith is already delivered to us.
2. Tradition
What about tradition? Did God give a body of truth, different and apart from teaching of the Bible, which was transmitted intact through the centuries in an oral, unwritten form? Definitely not! We can compare the church with the Old Testament people of God, Israel. From the prophet Malachi to John the baptist, God did not give them new revelations. The Jews were responsible to obey the Word of God preserved in the Holy Scriptures, and nothing else. During His earthly ministry, the Lord Jesus did not expect the Jews to believe some extra-scriptural doctrine which was supposedly transmitted from the prophets of old by word of mouth. Jesus often appealed to the Scriptures – ‘It is written’ – but He never appealed to tradition as if it carried equal authority (see below). On the contrary, He rebuked the Jews for adding traditions which in effect undermined the plain teaching of the Scriptures: ‘Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition’ (please read Mark 7). Sadly, history repeats itself. Christians today should obey the Word of God preserved in the completed Scriptures, but they often go beyond what is written. Because of tradition, the Catholic church now has graven images, obligatory fasting, relics, indulgences, celibate ministry, the sacrifice of the mass, the confessional, purgatory and so on, all of which are absent from the Bible and indeed contradict the plain teachings of Scripture.
3. Bishops
Finally, can we place the teaching authority of the church on the same plane with the Bible? Certainly we should listen to and respect Christian teachers. Pastors (also know as bishops and elders) are God’s gift to His church. They are appointed by God to teach and lead the churches, and Christians are commanded to submit to them. The leaders’ responsibility is to study and teach God’s Word as it is, without additions or change. They should study the Word carefully for they are liable to make mistakes (2 Timothy 2:15). And since they are not infallible, the apostle Paul advises us to ‘test all things; hold fast what is good’ (1 Thessalonians 5:21), while James warns us: ‘My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things’ (James 3:1).
In short, since the Bible is the Word of God, there is nothing of equal authority. Hence the Christian’s commitment is to the Bible alone as the ultimate and absolute authority. Christ rejected tradition as an additional channel of revelation. Christ showed that the religious teachers were fallible – and how! Christ had absolute confidence in the Scriptures as the Word of God. I am His disciple and I share His convictions. That is why I believe in sola Scriptura.
The Bible reveals an infinite God who is perfect in holiness, love, wisdom and in all His attributes. The Bible teaches us how He created the world and how He rules all things by His wise providence. His Law reveals our sinfulness, and warns us about Hell and the wrath to come. Thankfully, the Bible also has a good message of hope. God sent His Son who gave Himself as a ransom for many. He overcame death and He is now alive forevermore. The Bible calls us to repentance and faith in Christ for our salvation, and guides us by its precepts along the way of our pilgrimage. The Bible gives us precious promises, especially of His protection and His coming again to take us home.
What does any of this have to do with Catholics praising idols (ex: kissing dead people, hearts) and what does this have to do with them praising Mary as if she were God?
No matter which way you twist it, or try to explain it, God’s Word is law. Praising idols, fashioning idols is wrong.
Why has he not ever said that? Obviously, books – even the holy ones – are meant to be read. Thus, God made the Holy Scriptures to be read. But read by whom? Everyone?
Of course not. If not everyone is competent enough to read common books, much less are able to read specialized and scientific books, and even less can understand the books of the Holy Scriptures, that are much deeper. An unprepared reader, or someone with no convenient knowledge, will either not understand the text, or misunderstand it, get at an even worse state than that one of ignorance. Because not knowing it is not as bad as misunderstanding it. For this reason, God said in the Book of Proverbs: “As if a thorn should grow in the hand of a drunkard: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.” (Prov. XXVI, 9).
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
How about asking the Holy Spirit for ‘guidance and understanding’ when reading the Word if it seems so ‘hard’, He’s helped me more times than I can count? But, as you can see, no matter what you say via the Bible, there’s always a comeback that shows just how much true ‘searching’ they’re willing to do.
I’ve learned (sadly especially when it comes to Catholics and others who are steeped in traditions) to give the Word and move on as the Spirit of God allows, because otherwise the “debate” will continue.
It is often asked what purpose is there to pray to Saints? Is not Jesus the Son of GOD the only Mediator between GOD and man?
Jesus is truly the only Mediator between GOD and man. The Catholic Church recognizes and venerates Saints because they led exceptional lives in union with GOD and in return for their good works and perfect example, GOD blessed them with miracles through their prayers and intercessions.
Catholics do not worship Saints, they venerate, honour and imitate their virtues; the virtues which led them into profound holiness, an exceptional life lived only for the glory of GOD.Catholics pray to God and ask the saints to pray for us, Catholics do not pray “to” the saints, we pray “with” the saints as we unit ourselves with them, because Catholics believe in the “Communion of Saints” (Romans 12:4). That is those saints in heaven and those on earth are united by the common head (Jesus Christ). Further St. James enjoins the Christians to “pray for one another that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much”(James 5:16) .
The Holy Bible has revealed that GOD respects the intercession of those who led such lives, who resigned themselves completely to His Holy Will, who lived and laboured for His glory.
The perfect example of an intercessor would be of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. She, at the wedding of Cana, interceded when the wine ran out, and said to the servants, even though it was not yet time for Jesus to begin His public ministry:
“Do whatever He tells you.” Gospel of John 2:5
Jesus respects and honours the intercession of His Mother, the Mother who gave BIRTH to Him, nourished Him, loved Him, and finally raised Him and prepared Him for His Ministry. Mary played and instrumental part in the life of Jesus her Son, from the time of His Birth until His Death. Mary stood by Her Crucified Son at the foot of the Cross and held Him one last time before She placed Him in the Tomb.
As far as the remission of sins and redemption of mankind are concerned, Jesus is the sole Mediator who sacrificed Himself for the forgiveness of sins!! How clearer can a Catholic get!
You said: The Catholic Church recognizes and venerates Saints because they led exceptional lives in union with GOD and in return for their good works and perfect example, GOD blessed them with miracles through their prayers and intercessions.
My Comment: Good works is not going to get anyone into heaven.
Ephesians 2:8-9) “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
You say Catholics do not worship saints. I’ve seen pictures of the Pope and catholics, kissing bones, praying to dead people, and so forth. I disagree with you completely. I have seen photos of dead hearts on display. Disgusting.
Well, the reason that it is the custom of Catholics to keep the relics of saints and martyrs on their altars is because, in the very early Church, it was the custom to celebrate Mass in the Roman catacombs on top of the tombs of the martyrs. This custom is actually what Revelation 6:9-10 is making a reference to. The Church used the martyrs’ tombs as altars because, when Mass is offered, it is our participation in the eternal worship that is always taking place among the angels and saints in Heaven, just as we see in the opening chapters of the Book of Revelation. For, as even Protestants believe (because the Epistle to the Hebrews says so), Christ is our High Priest, and He offers His Sacrifice (His own-time historical Sacrifice on the Cross, and also His Resurrection) to the Father in Heaven for all eternity. The Mass (and most especially the Eucharist) is our earthly participation in the eternal offering of this Sacrifice in Heaven, just as St. Paul says in 1 Corinth 10:16-22. So, the reason that we keep the relics of the saints on or near the altar when we celebrate Mass is to remind us that the Church on earth and the Church in Heaven is the same Church, and that, when we celebrate Mass, these same saints are truly with us and are worshiping the Lord with us. For, what does Scripture say? It says that those who truly believe in Christ will NEVER die (John 11:26), and that those in Heaven will be “with” the Lord (Phil 1:23), and the Lord Jesus is not dead, but very much alive. Thus, the saints and martyrs are not dead, but alive and with us, since they are with and in Christ, and Christ promised to be with us always. This is the meaning of Matt 16:18, when Jesus speaks of His Church and says that “the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” Here, the Greek word is actually not “hell” but “hades” –the realm of the dead, or death itself. And so, what Jesus is saying is that death itself will never prevail against His Church or divide its unity. And so, we believe that the saints in Heaven are united with us in one Body, since we all belong to the same Body of Christ, the Church. Thus, when the Church worships on earth, the Church that is in Heaven worships with it. This is what the Church is expressing when it keeps the relics of saints and martyrs close by when it celebrates Mass. It is not a pagan custom, but a custom rooted very firmly in Biblical truth.
Another reason why relics are not pagan is because we see the Christian custom already in use in the Bible. If one bothers to look at Acts 19:11-12, it says ….
“So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.“
This is an example of a relic. In fact, the Greek Church still claims to have some of these face cloths and aprons, since they were preserved by the church of Ephesus and still used to heal people after St. Paul died. Relics are Biblical. They are not pagan. They have nothing to do with paganism or witch doctors, but are a sign that our Christian Faith is more than a mere spiritual faith. Rather, our Christian Faith is both a spiritual faith and an Incatnational (Flesh and Blood) Faith, because Jesus came to us physically in the Flesh, and He established a physical Church which could touch people directly and incarnationally. Relics are an extension of the fact that the Church truly is the Body of Christ. St. Paul was unquestionably part of the Body of Christ. He was holy and enjoyed great intimacy with the Lord, and the Lord worked miracles through Paul because of that. To have something that Paul personally touched, or even a fragment of Paul’s body, is and always was seen as a way of connecting to Paul in an Incarnational sense, and so connecting to Jesus Himself through Paul (or some other holy saint). This incarnational dimension of the Christian Faith is sorely rejected by Protestants …which is why they overlook passages like Acts 19:11-12 and don’t immediately recognize relics to be Biblical.
You to widen your history to check all areas of Catholicism to understand them!
You said: Casey has a point Gloria and knows his faith and history
My Comment: Seriously, Alex I adhere only to the Word of God as the complete truth. So with all due respect, you, Casey, and the Pope himself can come down and try to convince me that what they do is the “right” thing. But God himself says idolatry/idol worship is not to be done, then guess what? I follow God himself not man.
John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
I will not praise Mary, nor the pope, nor Paul
No matter how much you love someone who has passed, you are not supposed to dig them up and put them in a glass display to pray to them.
And Catholics do look for a healing from the “Saint’s” relics, i.e., dead remains and material objects. Do a little more studying about the Catholic religion, and you will find out more of what they believe.
“Saints” catholic style are made “after” they are DEAD. Saints (small s) is any living believer according to the bible. All believers are saints. In Greek mythology, there was a ‘god’ for everything. The god of this and the god of that. The RCC imitated this pagan practice and in came the “Saints.” A Saint to pray for protection when traveling, Saint of the youth, Saint of cancer. This is nothing more than what the Greeks did. Please research this. We are to only pray to God and not a manufactured “Saint.”
Mass as a sacrifice is not Christian. Jesus in sitting at the right hand of the Father (one incarnation–which you recognize). But the RCC says there is more than one incarnation because they say His body, blood, soul and divinity is in the Eucharist. This means He is seated at the right hand of the Father in the flesh and also on earth in millions of hosts on earth. Therefore this “mystogogy” which is based on the failed scientific theory of ‘accidents’ from the Greek pagan Aristotle, again introduces more paganism in the form of cannibalism. If what the RCC says is true, then every person who receives Eucharist is a saved believer (since they have life within then) and every baptized baby is a Christian..even though I have known many baptized Catholics who take Eucharist to believe in reincarnation. Did the Eucharist change them? Were they committed to the Lord? Born again? No. The RCC say babies baptized are born again. Again, no.These babies have no clue. Ask Madonna and Lady Gaga if they are born-again. After all they were baptized and the RCC along with Scott Hahn says to be baptized is to be born again.
Please consider President Obama was elected because the Catholic vote pushed it over the edge. All saved believers???
The RCC has taken relics to the superstition level. Venerating relics as gods and making those objects “holy.” They bow down and kiss them like Aaron bowed down to the golden calf.
There is more to Catholicism than what meets the eye and what you have been told.
This particular battle is rooted in history you guys know! Degrees of reaction have ranged from friendly disagreement (as reflected in the numerous ecumenical dialogues produced between the two groups), to outright persecution and murder of Protestants at the hands of Rome. Reformation teachings that identify the Pope as the Beast of Revelation and / or Roman Catholicism as Mystery Babylon are still common among Protestants. Clearly, anyone with this view is not going to “warm up” to Rome any time soon.
For the most part, today at least, most of the animosity comes from basic human nature when dealing with fundamental disagreement over eternal truths. Passions are sure to ignite in the more weighty matters of life, and one’s faith is (or at least should be) at the top of the heap. Many Protestants think Roman Catholics teach a works-gospel that cannot save, while Roman Catholics think Protestants teach easy-believism that requires nothing more than an emotional outburst brought on by manipulative preaching. Protestants blame Catholics for worshipping Mary and Catholics think Protestants are apparently too dull to understand the distinctions Rome has made in this regard. These caricatures are often difficult to overcome.
Behind the particular disagreements over the role of faith and works, the sacraments, the canon of Scripture, the role of the priesthood, prayers to saints, and all the issues surrounding Mary and the Pope, etc., lies the biggest rift between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism: the issue of authority. How one answers the authority question will generally solve all the others. When it comes down to deciding a theological issue about defined Catholic dogma, there isn’t really much to discuss on the Catholic’s side because once Rome speaks, it is settled. This is a problem when trying to debate a Roman Catholic – reason and Scripture are not the Catholic’s final authority, they can always retreat into the “safe zone” of Roman Catholic authority.
Thus, many of the arguments between a Protestant and a Catholic will revolve around one’s “private interpretation” of Scripture as against the “official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.” Catholics claim to successfully avoid the legitimate problems of private interpretation by their reliance on their tradition. But this merely pushes the question back a step. The truth is that both Roman Catholics and Protestants must, in the end, rely upon their reasoning abilities (to choose their authority) and their interpretive skills (to understand what that authority teaches) in order to determine what they will believe. Protestants are simply more willing to admit that this is the case.
Both sides can also be fiercely loyal to their family’s faith or the church they grew up in without much thought to doctrinal arguments. Obviously there are a lot of possible reasons, and while we should not divide over secondary issues, both sides agree that we must divide when it comes to primary issues. Beyond that, we can agree to disagree and worship where we find ourselves most in agreement. When it comes to Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, the differences are just too great to ignore. However, that does not give license for caricatures or ignorant judgments – both sides need to be honest in their assessments and try not go beyond what God has revealed.
I have been in the presence of Christ a few times (all Glory goes to him), and even though I do not deserve the love Jesus has for me, I have felt the love Jesus has for all.
So this is why I say to every Hindu, Muslim, Catholic, and even those who claim to a different Jesus from the one in the bible.
Always follow God’s Word. Always. His Words are here forever. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but God’s words are eternal.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Re: Tony’s comments
Why am I not surprised by this?? Thanks to whomever started this thread, I understand where you were coming from, and will continue to lean on the Lord and follow His Word, despite what any man-made traditions lead me to believe otherwise.
Hold your heads up and remember what the Lord said about, “Sound Doctrine”. Take care and God bless.
True worshipers are not necessarily called “Protestants.” I am not a Protestant. So that is your first error in your post. I believe what Jesus and the apostle taught, and they were not called “Protestants.”
You call it animosity when others try to teach Catholics the truth, you couldn’t be more wrong. It is out of love that most bother to discuss with Catholics.
You say Catholics think that Protestants teach “easy-believism;” believing is easy.
Catholics do worship Mary. Whenever you pray to anyone spiritually, that is a form of worship. Why is that truth so difficult for you and Catholics to understand?
Catholics give final authority to the Pope, but true believers look to the written Word of God.
The scripture about private interpretation, 2 Peter 1:20, Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.
That is about prophets, humans, who spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit, its about how they didn’t interpret things on their own, but by the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t mean what the Catholics try to make it mean so they can use the scripture against non Catholics.
Please tell me, what is so difficult to understand that we are not to call other Christians our spiritual “Father”? What is so difficult to understand not to pray to anyone else but to God though Jesus? What is so difficult to understand not to bow to a statue or relic?
Do you just hate the truth?
For me it comes down to this. Once upon a time there was a Roman Emperor. The Roman Emperor decided to make a state religion. He then incorporated pagan practices into the church (and still believed and worshiped the sun-god until his dying day). He transferred the state power to the “pope” who then led a nation state and called it Christianity.
I am not following that man. The end.
God’s Truth as revealed through various means
Jesus, second person of the Trinity
The Bible
I’m uncomfortable when non-Catholic Christians use this term because they often use it in the context of sola-scriptura. This has the side-effect of implying that their particular interpretation of the scripture is trustworthy and true when is some cases it is heretical. Also, in my experience, they switch back and forth using the various meanings without clearly identifying which meaning they have in mind. Because of this it is difficult to communicate clearly when using this term.
2 Kings 13:20-21
“Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. 21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. “–NIV version
Many believe that God works miracles through the veneration (not worship) of those whose remains they are. In kissing a relic, we symbolically kiss a saint. If a loved one dies, we may keep a lock of their hair as a memento. It’s a tangible link to that person. So it is with relics. Those who say that this has no basis in Scripture obviously haven’t read it all. The early councils of the church, with concrete links to the apostles and those who lived while Christ walked the earth, approved such veneration.
Shalom, and welcome to this site.
You wrote:
Relics of saints have been venerated since the early days of the Church.
My comment:
Something that has been done a million times, is not correct because it has been done a million times. A lie that has been told 100 million times, is still a lie. A skull should be kept in the grave, even if someone likes to have it in their living room,want to bow down to it and kiss it.
Shalom.
In regards to adoration of skulls and bones, the Zoo might be a good place to start. Or even better. The Zoological Museums. There must have been holy animals that entered into Noa’s Arc, that should be brought into our Churches. There might be miracles linked to such items also.
Just a joke.
I trust Jesus. Please to the same. And leave the skulls alone, and please keep them in the grave.
Receive Jesus as Savior confessing your sins to Him only. [John 3:16]
Sorry folks, never heart of Pope Paul the 23rd. I think the corps belongs to Pope John the 23rd.
But keep up the good work in the name of JESUS to show all the wrong doings of the Antichrist Church.
God bless you all
E ONE WHO CRUCIFIED CHRIST.
What would your average Christian give to be able to view the Jerusalem Temple, preserved just as it was, in days of old?
The bodies of those who sleep in Christ are sacred Temples in their own right, according to the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.
Worship of such things would be wrong, and every Catholic knows that, but the proper veneration of the earthly remains of God’s true servants … looking forward to their (and our own) glorious resurrection is right, just, and as authentically Christian as anything can possibly be.
Only those who came upon the scene some 1500 years or more after Jesus and the Apostles, and who attempted to recreate the Christian faith according to the scant accounts they could glean from a book, while eschewing all that came before them, could get things this wrong.
Your ignorance regarding these matters is truly impressive!
This is what the Lord says:
“Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength
and whose heart turns away from the Lord. (Jeremiah 17:5 NIV84).
Put no man before the Lord and how many of us Catholics were instructed to read church teachings from popes & saints which kept us from reading the Lord’s words. Simply by reading all those other people’s teaching and spending hours saying their formulated prayers or venerating the bones of saints, we have placed other men before the Lord.
My mother was a holy woman; she died by all RCC Rules a saint. If a bishop exhumed her bones & put her on display in my hometown church, I would be appalled & disgusted! Leaders of countries are allowed to rest in peace, so let whom-you-believe-to-be-fellow-believers rest in peace.
Yeshua is our only way to the Kingdoom of G-d.
May you all have a blessed day
What happens when a Pope dies? Traditionally the body is dressed in state with the red and gold chasuble and the fanon of white silk and gold thread. In former times, the body was always carried to the small Chapel of the Blessed Sacrament on the right side of the basilica, midway up the great nave. He was laid in state for two days, for without embalming it was not possible to view the body any longer. At the appointed time, the body was carried in great solemnity to the High Altar for the Mass of the Dead.
“Immediately after the general absolution, the body was placed in triple coffins; cypress, lead, and elm, at the side of which stand the chief priest of the Basilica and the Cardinal Camerlengo. Two veils of silk were placed over the face and hands of the pontiff. A great clanking re-echoed from chapel to chapel; it was caused by the taps of the coffin which was being sealed, and crossed with violet ribbons.
Even to this day, three coffins are used. The first, made of cypress, like Paul VI’s, is to signify that even the popes are human and are buried like common men. The second, of lead, bears the name of the pontiff, the dates of his pontificate, and copies of the documents of profound importance issued under his seal. The broken seal of office is placed within the lead coffin by the Camerlengo prior to final closure. Finally, the third coffin, made of elm, the most precious of local woods available in Rome, is used to signify the great dignity of the man being laid to his rest. Thanks to this ancient custom, many early documents of the Church have been conserved.
Once the body is sealed within its final coffin, with only the deceased pontiff’s family and immediate household present to attend him, he is lowered into the crypt below St. Peter’s, through the Confession of St. Peter, where the sanpietrini place the heavy cargo on a wagon, to be wheeled to the place the pontiff chose himself for his final resting place. Soon after, a sarcophagus would be fashioned by one of the great artists of the era, marking the grave site for all time.
In ordinary terms, the simple procedure is that the Popes are buried in the graveyard which is below Saint Peter’s Basilica among their predecessors. However, the pope can choose the actual place where they want to be placed in the graveyard. These are called tombs. From Simon Peter to John Paul II, about 100 papal tombs can be seen today in the Vatican Grottoes. The Vatican Grottoes is the grave yard of the Vatican City. It is not a secret place and any one can visit the Vatican Grottoes which is a major tourist attraction in Italy. In the Vatican Grottoes, pilgrims can see all the tombs of the popes in there. On 2 November every year when the Church prays for all souls, the Pope and other pilgrims present go to the Vatican Grottoes to say prayers for the late popes. This is in line with the practice everywhere when the faithful in families and parishes visit cemeteries to remember and pray for the dead. In accordance with different cultures, some lay flowers on the graves of their departed friends. This is not to worship the dead, but to pray that if they are in purgatory, that mercy be shown on them and be admitted into the kingdom of God. This is not a unique practice but it is practiced everywhere in the Catholic Church.
The question which probably worries none believers is why Popes are preserved in this way.
Different cultures have a way of preserving the remains of their beloved ones. I worked in Bulawayo for about three years attending Holy Mass at the Cathedral of Immaculate Conception. The space between the Bishop’s house and the Hall is called the Garden of Rest. It’s a beautiful garden that is ever green and during my stay in Bulawayo I always volunteered to maintain the Garden. In the Garden of Rest in Bulawayo there is a Grotto with the statue of Our Lady, holding the corpse of Jesus Christ after the crucifixion before burial. On the left of the Grotto, there is a black metal cabinet with many compartments. In this cabinet are the remains of the soul departed, perhaps important members of the community of the Archdiocese of Bulawayo. Their names are written on each compartment. They were cremated and laid there. The faithful who wish to pray for the dead love to visit this play and say their prayers.
In my family, we have a family cemetery. We have never done cremation. We believe in digging an deep hole and lay the remains of the departed in the grave. Once in a while, we also visit the cemetery to say prayers and put flowers on the graves of our beloved ones whose remains lie at the cemetery.
The use of tombs dates back to about 1 500 years before Christ. When Jesus died, he too was placed in a tomb and according to the gospel narratives, we know that this tomb was accessible. In my Shona culture, according to oral tradition, we know that Kings were buried in caves and these caves were accessible, only blocked by a big rock. In ancient Egypt, the remains where mummified, that is dried to ensure that the remains do not quickly decompose and were placed in tombs easily accessible by upcoming generations. Recent archaeological excavations reveal that this practice was not exclusive to Egyptians only but even in modern day Great Britain where mummies dating back to 1500BC where excavated.
After resurrection of Jesus, the Christian Church suffered greatly from persecution. We know from the gospel narratives that the tomb of Jesus himself was guarded because the authorities feared that disciples ‘would come and steal him.’ What to do with the bodies of the deceased was thus an important question. I would love to believe that this was not too difficult to deal with in as much as the remains of ordinary people were concerned.
What we know, is that the Church can account for the remains of most of the saints of the early Church. Why was that? This was because Christian cities valued the title for the last resting place of the most famous saints. Which is why Rome houses the tombs of Peter and Paul. In the early centuries, relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Coliseum, for instance, were quickly gathered and preserved. The story is the same for most famous saints. Churches were then built in memory of these saints and their remains would be given a resting place in these Churches. Just as an example. The remains of Mary Magdalene are found in the Basilica of Saint Maximin, south of France. The remains of Saint Faustina rest in the Sanctuary of Divine Mercy in Krakow-Lagiewniki. In April 2008, the remains of Padre Pio went on public display in the old church of Saint Mary of Grace in San Giovanni Rotondo.
In line with the same tradition Rome houses several saints. However, most popes are not on display as the saints but laid to rest in the Vatican Grottoes, which is like a cemetery accessible like any family cemetery. During the beatification of John Paul II, his tomb was withdrawn from the Grottoes and moved to the place of the ceremony.
In short, preserving the remains of our beloved ones is a common practice among humanity. Jesus was buried in a tomb openly accessible. Which is why Mary Magdalene was able to get to the place where his body was and panicked when she found him gone. Which is why the tomb of Saint Peter himself the first Pope, can be found in the Vatican Grottoes. These provide a solid memory for the Church which claims its foundation in Jesus himself. This memory is so powerful and authentic that even the tomb of Jesus Christ is also preserved and accessible in Israel, the Holy Land, to convince the doubting Thomas that the story of salvation is not fiction. It has not been possible to preserve the body of Jesus Christ because he rose on the third day.
When Catholics visit their Gardens of Rest, they do so, not to worship the dead, but to pray the same universal prayer which even non-believers use – ‘May they rest in peace!’
Please don’t post such long posts. Keep it short and sweet if possible.
I’m not sure I understand you lesson in Catholic pope burials. it’s still ungodly to venerate their bodies and parade them around to be revered.
The funny thing is there is NO proof in scripture that Peter was even in Rome.
Thank you for your response.
I was born, raised, and Catholic educated including University. The Lord pulled me out of Catholicism and gave me eyes to see the true gospel of Jesus was kept from me. I now have eyes to see.
You don’t need deep research to see the ungodly. Any child can see a dead body covered with wax with people praying to it as ungodly. Or praying to body parts, like holy bones or holy organs.
You say Catholic church history is “undisputed”…according to who? To them? Well of course. There is more history than their claim of it, I assure you. Many secular writers would disagree with your statement of undisputed history.
1John 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
John 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
John 8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
“I love all religions. … If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there.”
She encouraged the dying to pray to their Hindu gods and hoped that she could make a Hindu a better Hindu and a Buddhist a better Buddhist.
This is not Christianity and the opposite of Gospel.
Matthew 28: 19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.
I pray you will come to the full knowledge of the Gospel.
Blessings.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Jesus is not God. He is a prophet.
Ask yourself this.
Can God die?
Nope
Yet you all agree Jesus died.
Think about it
Shalom.
Can God die?….Nope
My reply
Jesus did not die, in the human fleshy thinking about “death”. Jesus took your death. Your 100 per cent sure death followed by eternal judgement.
If Jesus had not taken the punishment you deserve, there is a better chance that a snowball will survive the fire of Hell, than that you will avoid being sent to this hot place.
Jesus died on the cross, and spent three days and three nights in in the grave. The good news is that He is the resurrection and life. Death could not destroy him, and the grave could not contain Him, the creator and author of life.
Satan will have his own false version of the Messiah soon. The Antichrist will be fully indwelt by Satan. His brief reign will bring unprecedented terror to the earth before our Righteous King Jesus vanquishes the Antichrist.
how can a god protrayed prophet die in cross crusified along with three robbers together. without reincarnation and law of karma theory, it is not possible to explain why a pious man suffers and bad person enjoy the life. twins born to a mother- one child became rich after ages passed while other child when grown to adult is suffering in health and become poor. why such inequalities and inequities exists in world. this is due to law of karma – good and bad deeds and its causes are called karmas – theory of hinduism which carry foward to next birth in reincarnation. under this theory, all living entities like birds,animals, plants have souls and life – otherwise this theory can not be valid. but in christianity, animals ,birds and plants have no souls and they were created for the pleasure of human beings. worship of deads leave many unanswered questions like
where the soul rest during this time till body resurrection takes place when jesus comes on the judgement day. that means the soul has so much attachement and desire for the body in which it stayed. christianity is full of faulty doctrine and illogical concepts and fallacies and pitfalls in every aspects. better one can be an athiest rather than believing false prophet and false religion.
You are wrong. Jesus is God, and you risk an eternity of Hell for not believing that he is who he says he is!
Matthew 1:23 – “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 – “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 – (Jesus is the First and the Last)
You said: how can a god protrayed prophet die in cross crusified along with three robbers together.
My Comment: The Bible is clear.
Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —
It is clear. Jesus said whoever does not belive in him, will perish.
Becouse i do not believe jesus, i am condemned to hell and burned in fire. No problem as i live in earth as a good soul now and believe in reincarnation. so my good deeds (karmas ) will give me good birth in next life. i would believe this logical and reality rather than believing on faith based false religion with many fallacies and illogical concept of faulty doctrine, not in reality to the practical life. praying dead bodies is a foolish act. Think yourself as a ” good soul” and “Blessed with the life of human beings ” and not believe yourself as ” sinner” . one person sin is passed on generation race to you- i mean remembering you the adam and eve story. sin is not a electricity to pass on through generation. Christianity brain washes and engage in ” soul harvesting , corrupting your mind and fooling people. pl either think of any other god or be an atheist in life. so that in next birth you can still enjoy your soul itself instead of getting salvation from your jealous god crusified. how can he wash your sins by his blood? if you commit a murder, will your state police let you free without punishing you ? jesus story is a great imagination of some foolish person.
You said: Becouse i do not believe jesus, i am condemned to hell and burned in fire. No problem as i live in earth as a good soul now and believe in reincarnation.
My comment: That is a lie from the devil to rope in as many souls he can get. If you do not believe in Jesus and die without him, truthfully with love I say it is hell where you will be going.
Romans 2:6-8 He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Your comment; pl either think of any other god or be an atheist in life. so that in next birth you can still enjoy your soul itself instead of getting salvation from your jealous god crusified.
My comment: Jesus says: John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.”
I will put my faith in Christ, and in no one esle.
Your coment: how can he wash your sins by his blood? if you commit a murder, will your state police let you free without punishing you ? jesus story is a great imagination of some foolish person.
My comment: Then call me foolish, because I have been in the presence of Christ (all Glory goes to him) He has washed away my sins, and I have faith in him completely.
John 4:10-14 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?” Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Go ask your local pastor if you can donate money to build a display for your dead relative, who lived a good life. Tell them you want to put it in one of the corners or alcoves so people an visit and share the message.
See what the reaction is.
Ivarfeld lives to cause derision and hatred for Catholics, all in the name of SHALOM. He is a proud hater working against the kingdom of God just like Paul before his conversion.
Only a lightening bolt could change his invincible ignorance and blind hatred that he has, Forget reason and logic, and I might add even the Bible he claims to obey.
I reluctantly read these posts and I find that most of the people that Catholic bash only listen to themselves and never respond, or even try to understand where we are coming from. They probably feel they don’t need to they have it all figured out. I bet if Jesus himself got in the discussion they would bash his mother right in front of him and tell Him that He isn’t SAVED..
This website is nothing short of appalling. If you possess the TRUTH as you claim you do. Then stop inflaming people with your articles that twist the truth and have a SERIOUS discussion on the differences. That way both sides can understand where they are coming from and make a decision based on TRUTH, not on Emotion.
I might add to all those Catholic bashing folk, pick up a book called ” A Biblical defense of Catholicism” by Dave Armstrong if you dare.
After all if you all believe that you have the authority to interpret scriptures on your own then, whose to say and with what authority that the Catholic interpretation of scripture is wrong?.If you have the TRUTH as your guide then you need not fear reading this book, just as I do not fear reading the Koran..
No matter which you way you twist it, the Word of God is the complete truth. That you bow down and pary to dead flesh and bones not only goes against his Word, but also is a disgusting display. What do you think you’ll receive when bowing down to a dead man and praying to it? What answer do you think you’ll get when you pray to Mary who was a sinner like us all?
Like I said no matter which way you or the pope twist it, God’s Word is the complete truth.
Romans 1:25 Because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Does ayone know of another person who has made this claim besides the pope? Here is a quote from pope Leo XIII in the apostolic leetter, “Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae”.
“But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…”
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm
No wonder popes capitalize pronouns when speaking of themselves, they probably think they are taking God’s place here.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Permission granted.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
New International Version (NIV)
The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
John 4:24
New International Version (NIV)
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”